To me that post also had an element of trying to apply a rich interiority to the ADHD experience, which neurotypical simpletons, who just want to have leisure time, could never understand. I don't go to bed, but for a much more interesting reason than anyone else, etc.
Yeah this is a great point. That’s one of my issues with ND/NT framing entirely actually—people are often like “um actually all NTs are the same but every ND is different” instead of acknowledging that we’re all quite similar, and different but in similar ways (which is why you can slap us under labels in the first place.)
Generally I get just as annoyed as you do about the silly dopamine explanations. I'm sorry, I don't need psuedoscience to explain why I don't sleep, I already know it's because I work too much. But that's also kind of why I get the sentiment behind the referenced tweet. Like you said, there's a sense that others might take it more seriously if it's seen as some medical disorderor otherwise out of your control.
The advice and comments I get from people in my life is just as annoying as the psuedoscience. Yes I do realize I'm giving up an hour sleep tonight to play video games before bed, that's my choice to unwind. It's not like I was really going to get a full night's sleep anyway when I get home at 11:30pm and work the next morning at 6:30am. That's life, I'd like better, but sometimes you've just got to grit through it and hope you don't increase your dementia risk too much.
As long as it's your choice! That's the important part, I think—it's only really an issue if you want to go to bed on time but feel like you just can't get yourself to do so in the moment.
Totally agree with all of this. I don't need to have medicalized terms for my ADHD...I need stuff that gets results. And if what gets results and physical/psychological health for me, is simply just going to bed later with my natural rhythm, then why would I need to attach some terminology based in a completely optional moral framework that unfairly shames late risers for no reason, to my very practical action that clearly works for me? As long as I'm not shirking my duties in life or actively harming people, why should I need to justify staying up later at all?
As for the RSD part -- I've been sensitive emotionally to social rejection my whole life. But a LOT of that comes from CPTSD (btw, thanks for adding that caveat; it was appreciated). My difference from sensitive temperament Neurotypicals in this regard is in degree and pervasiveness of my sensitivity. The emotional flashbacks can be debilitating and prompt me to act in ways that are read as odd at best, or rude at worst, and my sensitivity can be more like paranoia; often irrational and excessive. Yeah, technically I would fall under the RSD description, but not for the reasons people like the tweet OP would ascribe to it.
For sure. And I don't think I'd even use the neurodivergent/neurotypical label for CPTSD-type RSD, because it's clearly trauma-induced and clearly also a disorder--I just don't think it makes sense to put it under the "natural variations in brain function" umbrella. (I have other issues with neurodivergence but this is a topic for another time)
"But “ability to concentrate” is a normally distributed trait, like IQ. We draw a line at some point on the far left of the bell curve and tell the people on the far side that they’ve “got” “the disease” of “ADHD”. This isn’t just me saying this. It’s the neurostructural literature, the the genetics literature, a bunch of other studies, and the the Consensus Conference On ADHD. This doesn’t mean ADHD is “just laziness” or “isn’t biological” – of course it’s biological! Height is biological! But that doesn’t mean the world is divided into two natural categories of “healthy people” and “people who have Height Deficiency Syndrome“. Attention is the same way. Some people really do have poor concentration, they suffer a lot from it, and it’s not their fault. They just don’t form a discrete population."
I have also written at length about the pitfalls of ascribing everything to dopamine so that sentiment I do agree with here, but ADHD does have a huge overlap with circadian rhythm disruptions like delayed sleep phase disorder, which is not really something you can fix by becoming more comfortable with boredom. (Melatonin and light therapy, maybe, although nothing I’ve tried has truly changed my circadian rhythm long term enough for me to work a morning job) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12402-016-0214-5
Yeah this is a good point. ADHD and sleep have this weird bi-directional relationship; it's really rare to meet an ADHD person who isn't self-sabotaging their own sleep for the usual reasons, and the easiest way to induce ADHD-like symptoms in a neurotypical person is to severely deprive them of sleep and then stick them on a stimulant like caffeine. I suspect this is why so many highschoolers are presenting with ADHD these days. But also, circadian rhythm is super real, and so ultimately it doesn't really matter if ADHD is the "base" cause or whatever.
Personally my sleep got a lot more regular when I committed to getting out of bed immediately in the morning, not eating too much before sleep, sleeping in a very cold room, exercising regularly, and a bunch of other stuff I've written about before. But it also just seems very likely that I don't have delayed sleep phase disorder and I don't want to do the whole bootstraps routine lol--if it were so easy, I'm sure you'd have solved it already. Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
(Also it's fascinating that the frontline treatments actually just are "uh, take melatonin and do light in the morning I guess?" Do we really not have anything better??)
I think you have some great points, but unfortunately footnote one isn't a good example. Overreactive sympathetic nervous system can completely change the manifestation of a disorder. For example, Pathological Demand Avoidance. PDA is Autism + hair trigger... Trigger. 😏 The anxiety response is so intense and persistent that people with PDA almost seem to have a different disorder, in fact, in some places in Europe they have broken it out from ASD because it needs to be treated differently.
Makes sense. I think I'll file PDA under the "some disorders like C-PTSD are actually exceptions to this paradigm and require special handling / treatment" caveat.
Not a medical professional, but I have co-occuring ASD, ADHD, and cPTSD, and have managed to live "quite" normally, have a career, family, etc.
I do have occasional mental breakdowns but I also have a system to manage that. I suppose I can now afford seek professional help as needed but this wasn't always the case.
Not sure what point I am trying to make. Something like, balance how much you adapt to the world, and don't expect it to move towards you, no gold stars for being either ND or NT.
Are you sure the entire concept of ego depletion has been debunked as you say? Or just whatever studies had been performed up to now have been debunked, which is not as strong a claim?
I suppose it's not strictly impossible but I'd be very surprised--and in general, whenever I see large and conflicting bodies of evidence, my standard conclusion is "even if this effect does exist, clearly it's not large enough to take very seriously, so I'm just gonna throw out the bathwater"
To me that post also had an element of trying to apply a rich interiority to the ADHD experience, which neurotypical simpletons, who just want to have leisure time, could never understand. I don't go to bed, but for a much more interesting reason than anyone else, etc.
Yeah this is a great point. That’s one of my issues with ND/NT framing entirely actually—people are often like “um actually all NTs are the same but every ND is different” instead of acknowledging that we’re all quite similar, and different but in similar ways (which is why you can slap us under labels in the first place.)
Generally I get just as annoyed as you do about the silly dopamine explanations. I'm sorry, I don't need psuedoscience to explain why I don't sleep, I already know it's because I work too much. But that's also kind of why I get the sentiment behind the referenced tweet. Like you said, there's a sense that others might take it more seriously if it's seen as some medical disorderor otherwise out of your control.
The advice and comments I get from people in my life is just as annoying as the psuedoscience. Yes I do realize I'm giving up an hour sleep tonight to play video games before bed, that's my choice to unwind. It's not like I was really going to get a full night's sleep anyway when I get home at 11:30pm and work the next morning at 6:30am. That's life, I'd like better, but sometimes you've just got to grit through it and hope you don't increase your dementia risk too much.
As long as it's your choice! That's the important part, I think—it's only really an issue if you want to go to bed on time but feel like you just can't get yourself to do so in the moment.
Totally agree with all of this. I don't need to have medicalized terms for my ADHD...I need stuff that gets results. And if what gets results and physical/psychological health for me, is simply just going to bed later with my natural rhythm, then why would I need to attach some terminology based in a completely optional moral framework that unfairly shames late risers for no reason, to my very practical action that clearly works for me? As long as I'm not shirking my duties in life or actively harming people, why should I need to justify staying up later at all?
As for the RSD part -- I've been sensitive emotionally to social rejection my whole life. But a LOT of that comes from CPTSD (btw, thanks for adding that caveat; it was appreciated). My difference from sensitive temperament Neurotypicals in this regard is in degree and pervasiveness of my sensitivity. The emotional flashbacks can be debilitating and prompt me to act in ways that are read as odd at best, or rude at worst, and my sensitivity can be more like paranoia; often irrational and excessive. Yeah, technically I would fall under the RSD description, but not for the reasons people like the tweet OP would ascribe to it.
For sure. And I don't think I'd even use the neurodivergent/neurotypical label for CPTSD-type RSD, because it's clearly trauma-induced and clearly also a disorder--I just don't think it makes sense to put it under the "natural variations in brain function" umbrella. (I have other issues with neurodivergence but this is a topic for another time)
https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/
"But “ability to concentrate” is a normally distributed trait, like IQ. We draw a line at some point on the far left of the bell curve and tell the people on the far side that they’ve “got” “the disease” of “ADHD”. This isn’t just me saying this. It’s the neurostructural literature, the the genetics literature, a bunch of other studies, and the the Consensus Conference On ADHD. This doesn’t mean ADHD is “just laziness” or “isn’t biological” – of course it’s biological! Height is biological! But that doesn’t mean the world is divided into two natural categories of “healthy people” and “people who have Height Deficiency Syndrome“. Attention is the same way. Some people really do have poor concentration, they suffer a lot from it, and it’s not their fault. They just don’t form a discrete population."
should've known Scott would have a post on this smh
I have also written at length about the pitfalls of ascribing everything to dopamine so that sentiment I do agree with here, but ADHD does have a huge overlap with circadian rhythm disruptions like delayed sleep phase disorder, which is not really something you can fix by becoming more comfortable with boredom. (Melatonin and light therapy, maybe, although nothing I’ve tried has truly changed my circadian rhythm long term enough for me to work a morning job) https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12402-016-0214-5
Yeah this is a good point. ADHD and sleep have this weird bi-directional relationship; it's really rare to meet an ADHD person who isn't self-sabotaging their own sleep for the usual reasons, and the easiest way to induce ADHD-like symptoms in a neurotypical person is to severely deprive them of sleep and then stick them on a stimulant like caffeine. I suspect this is why so many highschoolers are presenting with ADHD these days. But also, circadian rhythm is super real, and so ultimately it doesn't really matter if ADHD is the "base" cause or whatever.
Personally my sleep got a lot more regular when I committed to getting out of bed immediately in the morning, not eating too much before sleep, sleeping in a very cold room, exercising regularly, and a bunch of other stuff I've written about before. But it also just seems very likely that I don't have delayed sleep phase disorder and I don't want to do the whole bootstraps routine lol--if it were so easy, I'm sure you'd have solved it already. Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
(Also it's fascinating that the frontline treatments actually just are "uh, take melatonin and do light in the morning I guess?" Do we really not have anything better??)
This is great. I want to send this to a few people who probably need to read it but I'm afraid it would annoy them. 😬
I think you have some great points, but unfortunately footnote one isn't a good example. Overreactive sympathetic nervous system can completely change the manifestation of a disorder. For example, Pathological Demand Avoidance. PDA is Autism + hair trigger... Trigger. 😏 The anxiety response is so intense and persistent that people with PDA almost seem to have a different disorder, in fact, in some places in Europe they have broken it out from ASD because it needs to be treated differently.
Makes sense. I think I'll file PDA under the "some disorders like C-PTSD are actually exceptions to this paradigm and require special handling / treatment" caveat.
Not a medical professional, but I have co-occuring ASD, ADHD, and cPTSD, and have managed to live "quite" normally, have a career, family, etc.
I do have occasional mental breakdowns but I also have a system to manage that. I suppose I can now afford seek professional help as needed but this wasn't always the case.
Not sure what point I am trying to make. Something like, balance how much you adapt to the world, and don't expect it to move towards you, no gold stars for being either ND or NT.
Are you sure the entire concept of ego depletion has been debunked as you say? Or just whatever studies had been performed up to now have been debunked, which is not as strong a claim?
The latter, which is a very strong claim. If you have a really large body of evidence that largely fails to replicate after controlling for publication bias (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion#Reproducibility_controversy_and_conflicting_meta_analyses) you may as well conclude that there is no effect at all, and that you'd need to see some REALLY strong evidence to change your mind.
I suppose it's not strictly impossible but I'd be very surprised--and in general, whenever I see large and conflicting bodies of evidence, my standard conclusion is "even if this effect does exist, clearly it's not large enough to take very seriously, so I'm just gonna throw out the bathwater"
Thanks, this is helpful!
ChatGPT has been more helpful for me than any influencer.
I haven’t had Ritalin since I was a kid. Maybe this is my sign to get back on legal meth…