I sometimes wonder if our culture surrounding work has manifested in a large amount of the population being "night owls" and inadvertently caused lots of issues surrounding sleep. I'd love to see some data about how most people behave, because of course we see lots of people who wear low amounts of sleep due to being a night owl as a badge of honor.
It's interesting most to me because I have never really had serious sleep problems. This is curious considering I had a job in high school delivering newspapers. Due to it being contract work, you had to deliver newspapers 7 days a week rain or shine before ~6:30 AM, meaning for about a year and a half in high school I was waking up at 2:45 in the morning to deliver newspapers with relative strictness. Now I was a pretty average kid before I took this job. I would stay up late talking to friends and frequently fall asleep past 1 am. That changed when I took on that job, and I was usually falling asleep around 7-9pm out of necessity. I actually got blackout curtains to assist with the circadian rhythm, which I really hated, because I definitely felt like I wasn't getting a healthy amount of sunlight. Regardless I would say I fared about as well as you can tearing a hole squarely in your REM sleep when the rest of the world is functioning on a daytime clock. I would frequently dread waking up to go to work, and I was frequently fading at the end of the schoolday. Despite that, I would not have called myself an "insomniac". For the most part, I maintained a passing amount of sleep. I even traveled to Europe within that time, and returned to the job despite the jetlag.
Now after I quit that job, I became a hardcore morning person overnight. I've always maintained a fairly consistent sleep schedule since, and I've never really had too many issues falling asleep, I suspect mostly because that job was such a major stressor on my sleep rhythm that my overall psychology regarding sleep changed quite a bit in that time. When people tell me about their issues with sleep, it's very difficult for me to relate just because I've had such a stark difference between my sleep in my formative years vs. as an adult. It's hard for me to say I even really notice my quality of sleep, I don't have much trouble getting to bed or waking up (although I'd say I still bias towards falling asleep before I really want to). But even then, if I happen to go to bed much later than I intend to, I'm usually able to bounce back relatively immediately. My distribution of energy skews majorly towards the first half of the day.
The best way I can explain it phenomenally is that it feels like a virtue to be able to wake later than the extremes I used to experience (6 am vs. 2:45). Awaking and falling asleep feels much more frictionless now that I loosely follow the pattern of sunlight, daylight savings be damned (I do have a tendency to get "seasonal depression" during the winter months). Perhaps I should have been taking a vitamin D supplement while I was delivering. Maybe I'm just unusually resilient with sleep, but I honestly view that era of my life as very formative to my sleep habits. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if others had the same experience as me, or if we didn't have a "night owl" culture.
This is really interesting! I could definitely see something like this happening. And I do think
> Awaking and falling asleep feels much more frictionless now that I loosely follow the pattern of sunlight
Makes a lot of sense, given that that's presumably how we used to sleep before we invented, well, time. I would guess that people used to fall asleep more easily in the distant past just due to 1. Not having anything to do, and 2. Not having artificial light to keep us awake long past sundown. But this is pretty far into the realm of evopsych speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
> I sometimes wonder what it would be like if others had the same experience as me, or if we didn't have a "night owl" culture.
I suspect that there are a lot of morning people out there who simply don't know that they're morning people.
Regarding magnesium, I understand that the one you want to use is magnesium glycinate, as opposed to oxide or citrate, since it has higher bioavailability and glycine also helps to promote calmness and sleep.
Re: chamomile tea, it can promote urine production as well as calm production, so I personally don’t take it before bed, but YMMV.
Re: magnesium, doesn’t work for everyone. But if you haven’t tried dosing with dinner vs. morning or right before bed, that could easily be what makes the difference. I can’t find anything to convince me that one “kind” is better than the other for xyz condition, except magnesium “shit”rate for constipation.
Re: blue light, I personally noticeable mild difference, but like you said I think it’s the content and related sleep delay that’s the real issue. My phone stays in dark mode anyway.
Re: melatonin, taking it past 9pm or t-2 hours from sleep can actually delay sleep onset and lead to grogginess. It’s not my favorite for anything but helping reset a circadian rhythm, but if that’s your thing you may have to fiddle with timing.
I can't exactly do the phone in another room thing (for reasons), but I used to 'listen to a podcast' and then often get distracted on my phone. I recently switched to leaving the phone out of arms reach, and listening to podcasts on my recorder, which can also play mp3s.
For cold and air quality purposes (and oxygen levels, perhaps), leaving the window open makes sense. Is this something you do already or so obvious as to being not worth mentioning? It's often a bit too cold by the morning but that also can encourage getting out of bed to close it (can also encourage doubling down hiding under the duvet...)
Unfortunately Chicago weather is soooo inconsistent. I’ve tried once or twice but midnight temperature swings bother me too much (and also keeping my window open increases sound levels)
I sometimes wonder if our culture surrounding work has manifested in a large amount of the population being "night owls" and inadvertently caused lots of issues surrounding sleep. I'd love to see some data about how most people behave, because of course we see lots of people who wear low amounts of sleep due to being a night owl as a badge of honor.
It's interesting most to me because I have never really had serious sleep problems. This is curious considering I had a job in high school delivering newspapers. Due to it being contract work, you had to deliver newspapers 7 days a week rain or shine before ~6:30 AM, meaning for about a year and a half in high school I was waking up at 2:45 in the morning to deliver newspapers with relative strictness. Now I was a pretty average kid before I took this job. I would stay up late talking to friends and frequently fall asleep past 1 am. That changed when I took on that job, and I was usually falling asleep around 7-9pm out of necessity. I actually got blackout curtains to assist with the circadian rhythm, which I really hated, because I definitely felt like I wasn't getting a healthy amount of sunlight. Regardless I would say I fared about as well as you can tearing a hole squarely in your REM sleep when the rest of the world is functioning on a daytime clock. I would frequently dread waking up to go to work, and I was frequently fading at the end of the schoolday. Despite that, I would not have called myself an "insomniac". For the most part, I maintained a passing amount of sleep. I even traveled to Europe within that time, and returned to the job despite the jetlag.
Now after I quit that job, I became a hardcore morning person overnight. I've always maintained a fairly consistent sleep schedule since, and I've never really had too many issues falling asleep, I suspect mostly because that job was such a major stressor on my sleep rhythm that my overall psychology regarding sleep changed quite a bit in that time. When people tell me about their issues with sleep, it's very difficult for me to relate just because I've had such a stark difference between my sleep in my formative years vs. as an adult. It's hard for me to say I even really notice my quality of sleep, I don't have much trouble getting to bed or waking up (although I'd say I still bias towards falling asleep before I really want to). But even then, if I happen to go to bed much later than I intend to, I'm usually able to bounce back relatively immediately. My distribution of energy skews majorly towards the first half of the day.
The best way I can explain it phenomenally is that it feels like a virtue to be able to wake later than the extremes I used to experience (6 am vs. 2:45). Awaking and falling asleep feels much more frictionless now that I loosely follow the pattern of sunlight, daylight savings be damned (I do have a tendency to get "seasonal depression" during the winter months). Perhaps I should have been taking a vitamin D supplement while I was delivering. Maybe I'm just unusually resilient with sleep, but I honestly view that era of my life as very formative to my sleep habits. I sometimes wonder what it would be like if others had the same experience as me, or if we didn't have a "night owl" culture.
This is really interesting! I could definitely see something like this happening. And I do think
> Awaking and falling asleep feels much more frictionless now that I loosely follow the pattern of sunlight
Makes a lot of sense, given that that's presumably how we used to sleep before we invented, well, time. I would guess that people used to fall asleep more easily in the distant past just due to 1. Not having anything to do, and 2. Not having artificial light to keep us awake long past sundown. But this is pretty far into the realm of evopsych speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
> I sometimes wonder what it would be like if others had the same experience as me, or if we didn't have a "night owl" culture.
I suspect that there are a lot of morning people out there who simply don't know that they're morning people.
Anyway, thanks for the fascinating comment!
Regarding magnesium, I understand that the one you want to use is magnesium glycinate, as opposed to oxide or citrate, since it has higher bioavailability and glycine also helps to promote calmness and sleep.
Magnetism l-threonate is also effective for improving sleep. It's the form that has some evidence for getting into the brain.
You cooked here, 10/10.
Re: chamomile tea, it can promote urine production as well as calm production, so I personally don’t take it before bed, but YMMV.
Re: magnesium, doesn’t work for everyone. But if you haven’t tried dosing with dinner vs. morning or right before bed, that could easily be what makes the difference. I can’t find anything to convince me that one “kind” is better than the other for xyz condition, except magnesium “shit”rate for constipation.
Re: blue light, I personally noticeable mild difference, but like you said I think it’s the content and related sleep delay that’s the real issue. My phone stays in dark mode anyway.
Re: melatonin, taking it past 9pm or t-2 hours from sleep can actually delay sleep onset and lead to grogginess. It’s not my favorite for anything but helping reset a circadian rhythm, but if that’s your thing you may have to fiddle with timing.
Thanks for this!
Wow approval from an MD! Glad you liked it!
This is great
I can't exactly do the phone in another room thing (for reasons), but I used to 'listen to a podcast' and then often get distracted on my phone. I recently switched to leaving the phone out of arms reach, and listening to podcasts on my recorder, which can also play mp3s.
For cold and air quality purposes (and oxygen levels, perhaps), leaving the window open makes sense. Is this something you do already or so obvious as to being not worth mentioning? It's often a bit too cold by the morning but that also can encourage getting out of bed to close it (can also encourage doubling down hiding under the duvet...)
Unfortunately Chicago weather is soooo inconsistent. I’ve tried once or twice but midnight temperature swings bother me too much (and also keeping my window open increases sound levels)
Read non-fiction in bed in a dim light in a cold room.